Curse

Turtle222 · Dec 02, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

If any of you noticed the ending of BMP saul's story (cutscene), you see at teh end dorian shock and horrified at the mursaat and turns around to see thomas and hablion kneeling in fear.

now i feel bad when i kill dorian and hablion because i think they were once righteous good people...corrupted

in the end dorian sseemed to yield to peer pressure

CyberMesh0 · Dec 02, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

it's like I posted in another thread- this mission really puts into perspective the real motives and circumstances behind the White Mantle.

Nuclfus · Dec 02, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Agreed. I really like the bonus mission pack for how it puts these characters under a new light. Not to mention we now know that Saul really had nothing to do with killing chosen for the Mursaat and was really just trying to help.

strcpy · Dec 02, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

It also mostly settles the argument if the Mursaat were actually evil or just misunderstood (or at least what Anet intended them to be). The last few lines of the mission pretty much sums it up.

I feel sorry for Saul, up until they took him I was thinking maybe the people who think the Mursaat were just misunderstood (and we were manipulated into releasing the Titans and almost destroying the world by an evil Glint) were correct.

A11Eur0 · Dec 02, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

I dont mind killing Dorian even after seeing that. He followed his new gods without questioning it...maybe out of fear...but then after a very short period of time he became what he was acting like, and all nobility in him was gone.

Sister Rosette · Dec 02, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

That and he's kind of a dick to begin with. So no sympathy lost there...

arcady · Dec 02, 2007, 02:52 AM // 02:52

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

And when good men concede to evil for their own safety, evil triumphs even faster.

Onarik Amrak · Dec 02, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

But Mursaat aren't really that evil. Self-serving, yes. But evil? Not really.

Terraban · Dec 02, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Actually...the BMP confused the hell out of me.

What I got from Prophecies:

The White Mantle and Mursaat are in cahoots.
The White Mantle are after Vizier.
Vizier gives you boosts to kill Mursaat in Abaddon's Mouth.
Vizier is trying to get to the bloodstone, which requires killing Mursaat.
Vizier becoming the Lich is an "evil" thing.
The Mursaat were stopping Vizier from becoming the Lich.
So then....the Mursaat were good? Stopping something evil from happening.

What I got from BMP:

The White Mantle were good, but turned evil by Mursaat.
The Mursaat are evil.

So the Mursaat were stopping something evil from happening, even though they were evil themselves? Wtf?

FireFox · Dec 02, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

So the Mursaat were stopping something evil from happening, even though they were evil themselves? Wtf?

The enemy of my enemy isn't always my friend.

lyra_song · Dec 02, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Why let anyone else get more evil than you?

A11Eur0 · Dec 02, 2007, 03:05 AM // 03:05

good vs evil isn't always two-sided.

Three factions fighting exclusively. Starcraft anyone?

Mursaat/white mantle had their agenda, Lich had his agenda, and you were bouncing around between the two of them. Mursaat didn't want the titans loose, and the only way these titans would be loosed is if "The chosen" opened the door of Komalie. LIch wanted this. Lich tricked us into doing it for him. Mursaat may have been evil in their ways of doing things, but the LIch was also evil...two evil parties fighting with the ignorant good guys (us) as pawns.

Stockholm · Dec 02, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

The Mursaat was not evil, they clearly state that Saul knew the price he had to pay for calling on them. It just shows that nothing is free, everything has a price and we must pay one way or another.
Then the dork Dorian thinks he has to keep paying with sacrifices on the Bloodstone.

Terraban · Dec 02, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

On another note, we also never figured out what the deal was between the Seers and Mursaat. Was kind of hoping we would find that out : /.

strcpy · Dec 02, 2007, 03:09 AM // 03:09

*shrug* - if you wish to use that definition then there is no evil. Abaddon was imprisoned and his wish to blanket the world in Nightfall, destroy all the other gods, and enslave all of the world were also simply "self serving". I can't think of a single character that is described as "evil" in real life, mythology, and contemporary fiction that can not simply be described as "self serving". In fact, self serving to an extreme extend tends to be a large part of "evil".

The Mursaat had been known to enslave races followed by genocide in the past and were in the process of doing it to us - if that doesn't qualify as "evil" I'm not sure what does. Before this the argument was that they were not doing that and we were simply manipulated by Glint and the Seers, that they were only destroying the Chosen in an attempt to save the world from annihilation. The story very well could have been taken that way - we now see that is wrong due not only to what we have seen happen to Saul but also from the omniscient narrator (Anet telling us what they intended).

Interestingly enough this makes the White Mantle "Not Evil", just manipulated by those that are. In fact, some like Dorian began with an altruistic goal and for whatever reason ended up going truly bad. I had always seen them as taking advantage of the situation to take over.

A11Eur0 · Dec 02, 2007, 03:10 AM // 03:10

The sacrifices were necessary to keep the Door of komalie closed, otherwise others who knew about the legend would convince these chosen to fight against them for their own personal gain.

I'd say the mursaat are merely gatekeepers who have no remorse or just don't care. Not evil, just unfeeling.

strcpy · Dec 02, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

So the Mursaat were stopping something evil from happening, even though they were evil themselves? Wtf?

No, the Mursaat didn't care that what the Lich wanted to do was "evil" - they cared that they would be killed. It is fairly plain that if the Titans would have simply left them alone they would not have cared one whit. If I had to give a term to what they were it would be "amoral" and simply doing the quickest, easiest, and most assured way of protecting themselves - kill everything and everyone that isn't one of them (at least, according to the Seer's this was also how their eventual genocide also occurred and the Mursaat eventually planned to do it to us too). But, again, as I said above that generally fits our definition of "evil" as very very few motivations are "I like doing evil things".

The Mursaat were protecting themselves from something evil by doing something evil, that the they thing they were protecting themselves from was "evil" is irrelevant.

Zeek Aran · Dec 02, 2007, 03:24 AM // 03:24

The White Mantle were religious fanatics who captured and sacrificed others with no visible reason. Sorry, but anything that needs human sacrifice is evil. When we, the heroes, opened the door of komalie, we set free the titans, and then in the titan quests killed them. After that, no more sacrifices are needed, right?

Curse You · Dec 02, 2007, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeek Aran

The White Mantle were religious fanatics who captured and sacrificed others with no visible reason. Sorry, but anything that needs human sacrifice is evil. When we, the heroes, opened the door of komalie, we set free the titans, and then in the titan quests killed them. After that, no more sacrifices are needed, right?

They never clarify that. But it is assumed that for whatever reason, killing the Lich provides enough power to hold back the Titans for the rest of time (or something like that).

arcanemacabre · Dec 02, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

*shrug* - if you wish to use that definition then there is no evil. Abaddon was imprisoned and his wish to blanket the world in Nightfall, destroy all the other gods, and enslave all of the world were also simply "self serving". I can't think of a single character that is described as "evil" in real life, mythology, and contemporary fiction that can not simply be described as "self serving". In fact, self serving to an extreme extend tends to be a large part of "evil".

The Mursaat had been known to enslave races followed by genocide in the past and were in the process of doing it to us - if that doesn't qualify as "evil" I'm not sure what does. Before this the argument was that they were not doing that and we were simply manipulated by Glint and the Seers, that they were only destroying the Chosen in an attempt to save the world from annihilation. The story very well could have been taken that way - we now see that is wrong due not only to what we have seen happen to Saul but also from the omniscient narrator (Anet telling us what they intended).

Interestingly enough this makes the White Mantle "Not Evil", just manipulated by those that are. In fact, some like Dorian began with an altruistic goal and for whatever reason ended up going truly bad. I had always seen them as taking advantage of the situation to take over.

The problem is, in real life, things are not black and white, good and evil, ever. Morals are largely determined on what is best for the survival and advancement of our species, and it can extend to 'all living things.' However, good and evil in literature and media is nothing but fiction. If you want to get a realistic spin on a fictional tale, much of what this Mursaat stuff is, then you need to blur what people see as good and evil.

To respect realism, nothing in Guild Wars is evil. In fact, for the Mursaat's own personal survival and advancement of their species, everything they did was perfectly good and morally correct. It just didn't extend to the respect of 'all living things.' The same could be said of Abaddon and his servants and the destroyers. A self-serving, or selfish attitude can be found with the Lich and Shiro, since they both went against their own kind to get what they wanted. Evil? Perhaps, by our personal moral values, but then we have to look at why those two wanted the power they sought in the first place. It could be that they wanted the power to change the world in a way they thought would be better.

Our own characters could be seen as evil using those same criteria. At every point, our characters did what they thought was right in their own minds, whether they had the correct information to base those thoughts or not. If our characters, given certain knowledge and circumstances, ended up doing similar to what the White Mantle were doing, wouldn't others regard our characters as evil, while we would assume we were doing good? It's all about perspective and agenda. In all honesty, the only time you can truly be good is by not doing anything at all, and assuming no responsibility by way of ignorance.